Arrogant Indians; Uppity Blacks
3rd post in and I already need to invoke PlanetGrok’s law of HBD blogs. I went to a substantially African-American high school and I know of blacks all around the economic spectrum, so talking about blacks doesn’t really seem so absurd to be me. Yet, I realize a majority of blogs that focus on group differences (so-called HBD) have more malicious intents. I do not. Still, this is a No-PC zone and while I realize a majority of blacks and Indians are decent people to be around (a majority of both groups are not ‘arrogant’), personal observations should still be talked about.
In a Steve Sailer comment thread I participated in, I noticed several other commenters remark on how ‘arrogant’ Indians in the West behave. PG has noted the narcissism of certain South Asian groups. Even Sasha Baron Cohen has a hilarious Indian-accented schtick based on this in the Madagascar movie series. A notable quote:
Excuse me, this is first class, its nothing personal, it’s just that we’re better than you
I had previously felt that my personal experience with Indian arrogance had been due to their understandable distain of me for my bad habit of dating their women. Now, I’m getting the feeling that this could be a characteristic of a measurable minority of Indians in the West. Many people do not notice this behavior from East Asians who often come across as humble, even if they feel differently in private.
As commenters in the Sailer thread noted: India is a craphole. While the 10 million or so ultra-selected Indians in 1st world countries are relatively successful, a majority of the 1.5 billion South Asians in the world live mired in poverty comparable to that of the average African. Lynn gives India an average IQ of 81 (their tested score was 79) and the surrounding South Asian countries IQs of 80 or below. Long-existent Indian diaspora communities in the Caribbean and Southeast Pacific are hardly impressive.
So what is there for Indians to be arrogant about? Similar behavior has also been seen from some upper-class professional blacks; redneck southerners even have a term for it: uppity.
I think an HBD explanation exists for this behavior. According to Jason Richwine, the average Indian-American IQ is 112. This is more than two-standard deviations above their national mean. Similarly, it takes an IQ of 110 or so to pass calculus, something only a small percentage of blacks would be able to do. My theory: given that most racial groups spend their formative years around each other, successful blacks and Indians are well-aware of their intellectual superiority over their co-ethnics. This may lead them to assume they are also vastly mentally superior to members of other groups. Presently, differences in average intelligence exist between groups, whether or not they are heavily genetic remains to be seen.
It will be interesting to see the developmental trajectory of India though. International investors are under the impression that India is the next China. Many of them went to the orient 20 years ago and saw a desperately impoverished Chinese state. They expect similar progress from India, they may be disappointed.
The arrogance comes from a few different factors, I think.
One is that India is the cradle of high ancient civilization and has managed to keep it’s ancient cultures, traditions, arts, languages, philosophies and religions in tact and practically unchanged despite centuries of invasions and conquests by outside forces. This is all a matter of “pride” for many Indians, and is of course, totally understandable.
Second, India has always been a very heirarchal country, even before it was a country – let’s say South Asia in general has always been very heirarchal, with people knowing their place on the totem pole and acting accordingly.
A person who comes from a broken home or cannot trace their lineage beyond a mere 150 years or so would not have a high place in the heirarchy, so most Indians see non-Indians, Westerners in particular, as lacking “culture” and all that.
Another factor may be, an Indian may be genuinely humble and non-arrogant, but sometimes his or her accent or mannerisms may APPEAR to be arrogant to a non-Indian, as Indians do tend to have a bit more of a “formal” approach towards people they are not related to. And the accent speaks for itself.
In short, yeah, I think a lot of Indians do come across as arrogant, but I think they have a few good reasons to be arrogant, such as the incredibly rich, diverse and profound cultures that they hail from. Well, that may not be an excuse for arrogance, but it’s at least understandable.
On the otherhand for the ones who are arrogant just because they may be rich or something, that’s just bullshit.
PS: In addition to the above points…
Regarding Sailer’s commenters declaring that Indians have nothing to be proud of because they are so poor, even more than Africans, that is a totally materialistic view of the world. India is known for it’s profound depth of spirituality and philosophy, which is at the very heart of it’s culture, even today. So it would be THIS that Indians can be justifiably proud of. It has nothing to do with money.
You will find people in India living extremely humbly, what I would could “simply” but what you might call “poverty stricken” but they are happy, and smart, and often respected in their town or village for having mastered some difficult philosophical work of one sort or another. Like that.
Being poor does not mean being a dumb ass beggar.
On the otherhand it may be that Sailer’s commenters are comparatively wealthy with many more material oppurtunities than Indian in general, but they are products of broken homes and psyches, unhappy, bitchy, rude, crude, promiscuous, obsessed by porn or other some such low class behaviour like bar-hopping and going through multiple relationships, marrying, divorcing and then trying to score pussy or dick EVEN WHILE BEING A SINGLE PARENT or whatever – having zero culture and class, despite money and electronic gadgets.
In general I would say there is a world of difference between financial wealth and cultural wealth… what to speak of spiritual wealth.
So, this might be why some Indians are a bit hesitant to “mix”.
I can’t blame ‘em. So am I!
I am willing to accept Punjabi snobbery whenever those “spiritually enlightened” and “proud” Hindis stop butchering and raping my fellow Christians.
I agree that Indians have a long history which they should be proud of and that a lot of mistaken impressions are made from Indian facial expressions. I completely agree that India’s culture is very rich relative to other peoples. There’s also the perceived notion that smart dark-skinned people that keep to themselves are arrogant, hence my point about uppity blacks. But generally people don’t say these sorts of things about black African immigrants – an oftentimes smart people from impoverished homelands. Or East Asians for that matter. This leaves the impression that a lot of it is rooted in the hierarchical nature of Indians.
Should we importation Indians tendency to be hierarchical? I don’t know the roots of post-colonial India’s socialism and pro-USSR stance, but I suspect it had something to do with this sort of shit.
I’m skeptical of Richard Lynn’s national IQ figures. His methods were often far short of rigorous. He guessed the IQ of some countries by using neighboring country data, and he would cherry pick results – for example in his figure on Italian IQ, he uses two studies from the north. If he has included southern Italy, the Italian average would have dropped a bit, methinks.
The caste system definitely comes into play with Indian ethnic arrogance. With blacks I think it’s more of a “sticking to the man” mentality.
Something I always found amusing was that light-skinned blacks who are probably darn near white are often the ones to be the most Afrocentric, in an apparent attempt to make up for their complexion.
Dwayne Mayor, many (maybe most?) Punjabis are Sikh, so they would have nothing to do with “Hindu pride”.
(You said “hindis”. are you aware that there is no group of people called “hindis”, but that “hindi” is a language?)
Anyway, if any Hindus have killed Christians they are just a few out of millions. There really is no inter-religious strife at the ground level in India because India has ALWAYS had a religiously plural society. The inter-religious and inter-communal conflict in India is planned and carried out by politicians and their hired goons (gangsters) only, and they do it to get votes during elections.
Regarding smart and wealthy Africans and East Asians not appearing as arrogant as Indians, again, CULTURE. Africans and East Asians have failed to hold on to much of their cultural traditions. Even then, were those traditions as rich, varied, deep and incredible as India’s to beginwith? I don’t know but my hunch is “probably not”.
Even East Asia’s Buddhist culture comes from India. But have the East Asians held onto their Pre-Buddhist and Pre-Christian cultures like India has held onto it’s ancient cultures? NO.
Have Africans held onto their Pre-Christian and Pre-Muslims cultures? NO.
India has held onto and even exported it’s ancient traditions, while at the same time importing and absorbing later cultures, traditions and religions as well.
You are wrong about the arrogance stemming from feeling better than other Indians. In India being successful encompasses high quality in other areas too – women, family. When Indians observe the average westerner – black or white or Indian – with its promiscuousness, increasing acceptance of bastards, teenage pregnancies and the mainstream plebeian culture they get an automatic instinctive reaction of disgust which often comes across as arrogance.
However, this is not peculiar to Indians – at one point of time these behaviours would have been considered shameful by the average westerner too. Also Indians are not too far behind in adopting these behaviours too in this inter-mixed world.
This arrogance and disgust is similar to what other high income conservative family groups (mainly whites) also feel. They really think they are better than you – and they are not wrong.
You need to observe more intently and think deeper.
King of Punjab, I agree. However, I do not feel that at a core level any human being is intrinsically “better” than any other human being, but I do feel that some BEHAVIOURS are better than others, and where you see better behaviours in the aggregate population in any given culture, you can say that perhaps that “culture” is “better” than other cultures as well.
I think we can all agree that no two human beings are exactly the same, and no two cultures are the same either.
However, each culture does have it’s postive and negative aspects. There is no “perfect” culture.
But I will say that Indian culture has a better FAMILY CULTURE than current day American (lack of) family culture.
SHIT! That’s a no-brainer obvious to any objective person.
Bhalle Bhalle!
OM, I agree. I didn’t mean to say one human belonging to a particular group is better than other as a generalisation. That said every individual is judged by his actions. This has nothing to do with race. However, when people see people of the same group taking the same actions – it tends to become a group stereotype (racial/cultural/religious/background/socio-economic) etc.
Topics like group differences, especially racial ones are a hard topic to discuss for obvious reasons – sensitivity, self-identity etc. Going by his words the blogger here is making an honest effort to discuss the differences which is admirable, but his own experiences and identity seems to be tripping him up – which is fair enough – as I said it’s a hard topic to discuss objectively.
Levi (Bristol Palin crush?) you made a few assumptions which led to your post. Let me clarify these:
1. African Americans and Indians may share the same black colour of the skin but culturally, genetically, anthropologically they are very different to each other and do not identify with each other at all. So uppity blacks and arrogant Indians are completely different topics – don’t mix them up. Black people come in very different varieties too. This is similar to assuming that East Asians and Europeans are similar because they both are light skinned.
2. Culturally, Europeans and African Americans are very close. See the linkages between white trash and the ghetto culture. Indians also have their own lower end bell curve members too – however its very different to the type found in trailers or ghettos.
You are only 3 posts old so all good – you’ll get better but while discussing very complex topics make sure the underlying basics are all on a firm base. Your logic was a bit hard to follow – Smart Indians feel smarter than other Indians so they get feel smarter than everyone else. In our competitive day and age in mixed workplaces and academia – false self delusions get punctured very quickly by reality. But I agree with you some Indians can be insufferably arrogant. And sometimes it can also be hard for a white person to grasp as how a non-white group can be arrogant – try to think why.
HBD discussions require excluding the influence of our racial self identities – which is hard.
Thanks for the input King of Punjab. I completely agree with that last point.
Personally, I really just wanted an excuse to talk about a rarely discussed group in an un-PC way. One of the main allures of the HBD-o-sphere for me is the discussion of ‘exotic’ groups and their quirks.
King of Punjab, the Desi bias against being associated with Black people has reared it’s ugly head in your post. LOL. I’ll let it slide since I know it might even be a genetic bias in Desis. LOL.
If you look at old and indigenous African cultures and tradtions you will find many parrallels with traditional Desi culture(s) though.
However, what we see in the United States does not reflect that of course. But the United States is one big social experiment.
Interesting, I have never noticed arrogant behavior from Indians.
At the end of the day, except for whites, all non-Western groups I have come across are arrogant.
The Chinese and East Asians in general are notorious for being arrogant – the Chinese in particular have a history for being known for this, and in fact Chinese arrogance and notions of their own superiority proved so unshakeable in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary that they suffered over a century of humiliation and defeat at the hands of supposedly *inferior* Westerners rather than simply accept that perhaps those Westerners weren`t so inferior after all.
What is noteworthy is that none of these countries/cultures have any particular basis for their arrogance – sure, both the Indians and Chinese have some cultural and other accomplishments that are worthy of respect, but that hardly distinguishes them, and they have many blemishes as well. In other words, neither the Chinese nor Indians have shown themselves to be BETTER than each other, or than many other cultures around the world, yet their bizarre arrogance persists, even when it is shown to be massively self-destructive and mere pig-headedness.
That`s why I can`t buy any of this arrogance as having any foundation in any kind of achievement – sure, Indians have some achievements, so do Chinese – but so does the West. To be proud of yourself, sure. But arrogance? That seems laughable, especially when compared with the achievements of the West, alongside which, it must be admitted even by the greatest cultural chauvinist, all other national achievements pale. It must have some other explanation.
It should be noted that in many extremely poor countries like Egypt, or Thailand, for instance, a similar arrogance and sense of personal superiority finds expression. Ethiopia too, be it noted – all countries I have visited so I can report firsthand.
Interestingly, the West, which as the one culture which might have the greatest justification for displaying the greatest arrogance, has never shown it to the degree that other civilizations have – for instance, no matter how superior a Westerner might have considered his own civilization in the 18th century, no Western scientist or philosopher would show the complete disinterest in foreign cultures that is relatively common amongst the Chinese, who often rejected manifestly superior ways of thinking or effective ways of doing things – like modern medicine – simply because it was *foreign*, and who showed almost no interest in learning from others.
It is a fascinating question overall – why were the Chinese so arrogant? Was it some kind of defense mechanism against seeing the truth about their own limitations? Why did they not see how self-destructive this arrogance would be when confronted with the West? Interestingly, the Chinese would pay money to barbarian tribes on their northern borders in return both for peace and to obtain a kind of ritual, wholly illusory *tribute* from these tribes – why were the Chinese so intent on getting an acknowledgement of their own superiority from these foreign tribes, an acknowledgement they were unable to procure by force of arms or free interactions, but were actually willing to pay for an illusion? Why did this kind of meaningless *face* mean so much to them?
When the Chinese launched their great voyages in the 15th century, it wasn`t for conquest, it wasn`t for science, it wasn`t for trade – it was to force foreigners to acknowledge Chinese superiority. This is remarkable – why would anyone care so much about such a thing?
The one thing that unites countries like China, India, Thailand, Egypt, Ethiopia, is that they don`t particularly have all that much to be proud of – in that sense, their arrogance can be seen as a defense mechanism.
Another thing is that all these countries have rigid and serious caste systems, which seem a breeding ground for arrogance. The English in Europe were known for their arrogance, and England was the most class ridden country in Europe.
The whole question is a fascinating one with many twists and turns.
@Aaron
Your understanding of China and it’s culture and history are full of straw-men. You are either biased or really just shallow.
Aaron Abraham, I’m surprised you’ve not found Indians to be arrogant but at the same time you comment on that arrogance, (that you have not personally experienced).
Yes, Indians often come across as arrogant and indeed some of them are. But I think sometimes they come across as arrogant when not meaning to be.
There are many cultures and sub-cultures in India, and they all have to do with caste or religion or class or culture or tradition. For this reason you will find Indians that are not really into “mixing” with people who do not understand their particular sub-culture, whatever it may be.
Some Indians are very strict with regards to what type of food they eat and many will not eat food that has not been cooked at home. For this reason, if they refuse to eat food that is casually offered to them when in social or business settings, this can perhaps appear “arrogant”, when in fact all they are doing is following their traditional food taboo.
The countries that you mention: China, Thailand, Egypt and Ethiopia, are all more cultured and tradition-bound than any post-modern Western European or North American country, and THAT culture and tradition is what the people from these countries are proud of, not scientific discoveries or inventions, though those are also things to be proud of as well.
India in particular has managed to keep in tact much of it’s ancient culture and tradition, compared to other places that broke under the onslaught of Abrahamic cults and empires.
If you stay for some time in India, amongst India’s people, you will discover for yourself exactly what Indians have to be proud of.
PS: to the above.
In addition to the above factors, another factor in the “pride” of people from India the countries you listed, perhaps the biggest factor, is pride in social engineering.
Meaning: widespread family stability and extended family connection and LOVE
The West has a very “crass” and vulgar face. You will not find the sort of lack of family values and bold, crass vulgarity that is promoted in the media and pop-culture of the West in India, and I presume in Egypt, Ethiopia, Thailand or China eiter.
These are all places where people can trace their family trees back quite far, in India VERY far, and the families are intact.
Youth respect their elders and even LOVE to hang out with their aunties and uncles. You just don’t find that in the West. Sporadically, yeah. On a wide-scale as you will find in India – no way.
There is just an overall wholesomeness and goodness found within family-based cultures in Eastern countries that is missing in the West, where the families are made up of single moms and dads who’s kids have to grow up watching them dating and trying to “score”.
Both the kids AND the parents in the West are online “looking”.
In India and other countries, this would be deemed very shameful.
Even Indians who are not by nature arrogant, wouldn’t wanna hang tight with such people or have their kids associating with them, YET, sometimes, just by virtue of living amongst them, they must.
Om, I HAVE been to India, three times, to be exact. I love traveling in India, although I think the average Westerner wouldn`t exactly come away from India with a better understanding of what Indians have to be proud of, so I don`t know how sound your advice is.
Look, the point is not that Indians, or Egyptians, or any other group, don`t have things about their culture they can be proud of. Of course they do. The question is are these cultures so much better than other cultures that they deserve to be ARROGANT about it.
The idea that Indians have something to be proud of – as well as things to be ashamed of – is uncontroversial. The idea that Indians have earned the right to be arrogant, is, to put it mildly and despite the fact that I actually like much about Indian culture, ludicrous.
You will notice that I spoke most about the famous Chinese arrogance and only indirectly about Indian arrogance, which I have not experienced firsthand. I think what many are confusing for Indian arrogance is actually Indians surliness – which I have noticed.
I think arrogance – as distinguished from healthy pride – is more likely a defense mechanism for cultures who suffer from a deep sense of their own inadequacy. It is striking that the wealthier and more successful a country is, the less arrogant it is – even the Japanese, the most successful people in Asia, are much less arrogant than the Chinese, and it`s interesting that Chinese arrogance filled so powerful an emotional role in Chinese psychology that they let their own country be destroyed rather than face reality. There is a famous case in a southern Chinese city – Nanjing, I believe, where the Chinese governor in the face of a Western warship demanding parley choosing neither to accept, deny, or address the demands, or even fight the warship, when the results were so predictable. This is pathological and cries out for a psychological explanation – not simply saying *the Chinese have great accomplishments a thousand years ago so it makes sense they should be this arrogant*.
The West has the most impressive record of accomplishment of any civilization in the history of the world – not just in science, but in art, literature, architecture, and philosophy, indeed all the branches of culture – yet far from displaying the kind of mindless, futile arrogance common in other cultures, has shown a deep curiosity and appreciation of foreign cultures.
Anyways it`s an interesting question.
“It is striking that the wealthier and more successful a country is, the less arrogant it is ”
What?! Americans are WORLD-FAMOUS for their arrogance!
“The West has the most impressive record of accomplishment of any civilization in the history of the world – not just in science, but in art, literature, architecture, and philosophy, indeed all the branches of culture”
I STRONGLY disagree with this. Especially in regards to literature, philosophy and architecture.
But the West has had good PR, that’s for sure.
Interestingly, Americans were famous for arrogance earlier in the 20th century and the late 19th century – that’s when the whole meme started – at a time when America wasn’t obviously top dog and still felt a strong sense of cultural and even material inferiority towards Europe.
These days, when America is obviously top dog and Europe is obviously a has been even in the intellectual/cultural sphere, and Americans no longer look up to Europe even culturally, Americans are much less notable for their arrogance, even though the meme hasn’t died down yet.
The psychological implications of nations displaying arrogance – rather than mere healthy pride – continue to interest me.
Aaron, you make me giggle!
Aaron Abraham, are you a handsome dark haired, dark eyed Jew?
I fantasized about the Brooklyn Hasid when I lived there as a young girl. They had a large percentage of handsome young men amongst their ranks. And I loved their curls. But they were so insular I was scared to talk to them.
Recently I experience a lot of Indian arrogance from an Indian involved with an israeli
IT firm. His arrogance is about the fact he lives in Princeton NJ and that he hates women
in IT.
I happened on this string looking up ‘Indian arrogance. Maybe what you say here about culture is true but I also think when someone comes to MY country (family has been here 400 years!) they
should respect OUR culture. One of the things I find most disgusting is the failure to learn English
that is American. Perhaps they can write it but the pronunciation is awful. This no doubt happens due to not speaking English at home. It is neither cultured nor interest in education that has one disdain to speak another language properly. I speak three!
I also have friends in Canada and like them I am appalled by the ‘Honor Killings’ that occur among Indians and their ‘cheapness’. In work occasions I have had a co-worker from India send back a dish more than once and ask for another after consuming half the one they ordered! Then complain and not pay! Is that not arrogance?
What many people also do not know is that our system has let many Indian origin students stay here under the Mosaic immigration rule. Then they bring their parents, etc. and many of these are on the welfare system or having Medicare pay their doctor bills.
The Indian in question lied about me and a co-worker to try to make himself appear ‘better’.
Regardless of what ‘culture’ there is in India over the years, they can keep it. I know of nothing for which I should thank, in the present, and going forward, even in IT, very many Indians at
all. What culture they had is dead and they are only here in the West for the almighty dollar!
And they can’t run beans!
lol, ur iq is less than 10…..
i agree that some indians can be arrogant, but thats not the same case in other neighboring countries in south asia, for example- Nepal….
liked the iq, thing. south indians are dumb, and arrogant as hell. but no need to give other people from other neighboring countries of india the same iq, because they are completely different. not arrogant-self centered bastards of south india.
so, blame india. not other countries.
and dont give other countries a bad iq, most of them are already smarter than u and south indians.
The appeal to IQ is dumb, because IQ is dumb. Minimum of 112 to pass calculus? You’re kidding. That’s the stupidest thing I’ve heard all day. Everyone is capable of learning it, given enough time, and frankly, the way calculus is taught suggests that it is hardly understand and reducible to memorizing formulas that generate answers. A computer can do it. A dumbass can.
The explanation for arrogance isn’t rocket science. India is forging a nationalism, a pride, which it is attempts to use to overcome a sense of inferiority and economic backwardness. It’s a tool used by politicians, and the opiate drunk by the unwashed Indian masses. China suffers the same. If you still don’t understand, look at Nazi Germany. German arrogance is a Coue method used to paper over a deep inferiority complex which it feels in the context of history. That inferiority was exasperated at the close of WWI and at Versailles and many times over when the Great Depression hit, because it undermined the German self-image that was spoon fed to children in schools. Germany, too, was united from a number of shard kingdoms, duchies and principalities only in the late 19th century, and one way to create that sense of overall unity was to give a sense of rising to power. Hitler merely tapped into German resentment to realize his ambitions.
So, Indian arrogance…nothing new, de rigueur, even the US went through a phase of that at one point, old hat. I promise you that kind of arrogance does not exist in Somalia. However, the pride we associate with it is an essential ingredient used by those in power to lure the masses into cooperation, ambition and unity. It’s the “we’re better than you” component of an ideology that makes it more attractive over the others and resists fragmentation.
Is it possible to drive a country toward a certain cooperation or unity or self-respect without having to beat the drum of arrogance? Sure. But it’s much easier and expedient this way.
So, if you want to have something to say to a clever Indian, simply strike at the his points of pride. Examples:
1) “Indian philosophy is a failure, because it failed to produce the full fruit of a true metaphysics which has only been realized in the West, namely in Greece, and then refined in Europe.”
2) “Indian science never got very far over the years. The West accomplished considerably more in a much shorter time.”
Otherwise, who cares about them.
My theory is this: Indians harbor a great sense of insecurity owing to colonialism. The success that the Indian diaspora has achieved in the West has emboldened Indians to where they now believe that not only are they not inferior in any way, but that they’re somehow genuinely more intelligent than Westerners (and all others, for that matter). The arrogance and disdain they exhibit is their retribution for colonialism.
The Indians who’ve come to America since the mid 1990s or so are by far the worst, because they arrive here with the arrogance ingrained, due to the successes of the earlier immigrants. I find it very difficult to relate and work with these types.
Aaron Abraham, you are a stupid fucking jew. Don’t talk shit about China. You are nothing compared to China. If everyone in China knew a bit more about jews, we would have invaded Israel and give them their just reward by killing every Jewish man, woman and child. You’re just lucky that Chinese people don’t know too much about jews… yet.
You will be surprised. Indians are arrogant towards each other in India.